In this filmed interview with Didier Roustan, Caju speaks about the 1970 Bazilian Team - that won the World Cup in Mexico. It's in French. Paulo Cézar speaks well French, he played at Marseille (in 74-75) and finished his career in Aix-en-Provence (in the early 80s), near Marseille, where he still lives a good part of the year (when it's winter in the southern hemisphere, and vice-versa, in Rio the 6 other months).
After the video, an attempt at translating this moment with the World Champion, in some quite understandable English, I hope, and also accurate enough regarding the thoughts and speech of Caju, as it actually is.
Here's the itw., that takes place in Brazil, in 2014 :
Here's the itw., that takes place in Brazil, in 2014 :
LE GRAND SECRET... par roustantv-lequipe
Here is what he says :
3:00 : "This team started in the year '69 with Joao Saldanha. Saldanha was a coach who was chosen for the people, for everybody. That was a "popular election" [that's what he literally says, we can understand the idea which is about the fact that Saldanha was chosen to lease the people, that the people liked him, certainly for his style of play, not that he was exactly elected by the people in practice of course and that in the end it satisfied 'everybody' at this time].
"As he was under pressure in '69 [with a few time to work] he built a team based on players from Santos, Botafogo and Cruzeiro with 7 players from these teams. We're qualified. Saldanha knows problems, in particular with the government, there's Zagallo who comes in and who changes a bit this team : with Félix as the keeper, C.Alberto, RB, Santos, Brito, Vasco da Gama stopper, Piazza, DM transformed here into a libero, Cruzeiro, Everlado, Grêmio LB. Midfield : Clodoaldo from Santos, Gérson, Sao Paulo, 10, Rivelino 10 at Corinthians, left winger at midfield, 7, Jair who was 10 also at Botafogo, Tostao, CF, but 10 at Cruzeiro and Pelé 10 at Santos.
4:27 : « So why he built this team there ? » Caju asks himself. And journalist (Didier Roustan) takes the floor. He says : everybody thought that Jairzinho was right winger of origin [...] so it's five number 10 together, it's never seen before.
Now Caju : « yes it's never seen. And Zagallo... [so it was Zagallo' idea, but Caju fnally wants to underline something else to start with] and three left-footed : Gérson, Rivelino, Tostao. What he has done [Zagallo] ? As it was a team with much talents, it was easier to understand each other rather than the hubbub. We spent 60 days in [insert the name of the place here] at 3000 m. of altitude for the physical condition to arrive in the Final, as it took place in Mexico at 3.200 m., at our top level.
As he [Zagallo] had only Jair who ran fast (on the right wing), and me, as a substitute (as left winger), he made a team to play the ball, we must keep the ball, it's the shared objective ».
At 4:40 he now explains the formation he has set-up on the table :
« As he didn't not have confidence into the libero that we had the time, Joel, who was good, but who was not experimented at this epoch, he peferred to drop back Piazza from the midfield to the central defence as the libero, he had good feet him too...Cloadoaldo midfielder of Santos nearby. From there on, two midfielders together : Rivelino midfielder at Corinthians and Gerson midfielder, before at Botafogo and after at Sao Paulo. What we have ? We have the ball under the foot. He has putted Tostao - it was Gerson who had decided this, not Zagallo - he was a pivot whose the game was based on touches of the ball. So the ball was dominated from here in the defense until the midfield and in attack. And we kept the ball, in order to play ».
Journalist : so there was no long transversal passes of 60 meters...
« no, no...at times, there was for Jair who went fast...he scored two against Czechoslovakia in the first match...but we [a general « we »] did not know him very well, he was not a starter in '66...but at our club at Botafogo he was a 10, he played as a striker with Roberto. And Gérson he was the midfielder together with me, we played sometimes based on touches of the ball and we played sometimes long balls to Jair, and we did this with the Brazilian selection...[as well] ». Journalist takes the floor.
7:00. Jounalist asks about the set-up that Caju as chosen and questions him especially about the position that he has chosen for Pelé, in this 4-3-3, on the left wing.
Caju answers. He precises that in fact Pelé had « the freedom of movement », like Rivelino he adds, so Gérson who « could be here or here or there » at midfield, in consequence.
It seems that he wanted to insist on the fact that Gérson and Rivelino were the two playmakers of the team at midfield (two left-footed he precises again) so this position that he has chosen for Pelé on the table with the figurines (I don't remember the exact name of it in Portuguese), a bit by default in fact, finally. But also it seems that he has much the game against Uruguay in mind and this is maybe true that Pelé operated quite often on the left into this game (I think yes from the top of my head).
We continue with Caju's words rightly so on the match against Uruguay, at 7:10. Finally he will talk about this one. He intends to talk about this match to justify himself about the position he has chosen for Pelé.
« All the press talked about the defeat of 1950...hey, we must remember that we lost etc. etc. Not only in the Brazilian press, but even in the whole world... So we were at Guadalajara for the semi-finals and we were tense, nervous, everybody, amongst the players too with pression from Brazil, all the Brazilian people [he doesn't tell about the politicians/ militaries but that's what went through his mind in a very first time assuringly] from the Uruguyans too » he adds.
And at half-time...we took a goal 15 minutes before the half-time, Cubillas receives the ball on the shin and he deceives Félix like that !
Caju says Cubillas for Luis Cubilla. It has created confusion in the mind of the journalist who intervenes on it (or maybe that he only feinted it as he wanted to precise things for the video...anyway). The two ways of spelling his name must be acceptable I think.
Anyway, after he precised that he was well talking about « the Uruguyan, on the right wing », Caju continues. He has by the way not talked about what he especially wanted to talk about still, if you follow well.
« What he did Maneiro, the Uruguyan who arrived, landed at Bordeaux to finally play at OL ? He made an individual-marking on Gérson. So we could not exit the ball. What said Gérson (not Zagallo) ? [He scratches his right ear] He says 'problem'... ».
Journalist : at half-time ?
Caju : no, before, on the pitch, after the goal, the first-half was not over yet and Gérson will say that he can't play due to his marking...during the game, before half-time. So he says to Clodoaldo, go you ! And him he played more at the back before the defense...it's him who says that, it's not Zagallo », he repeats, in a more pronunced way than the first time. And what he does, Clodoaldo ? He takes the ball, he goes forward for the first time in his life, he gives the ball to Tostao who was in position of left winger... he puts the ball here [he shows the zone on the left], he runs, Tostao makes the pass, he equalizes ».
Journalist : he makes the pass to who ?
Caju : « to Clodoaldo… who had never scored a goal in his life... because Gérson ordered to him 'go forward, me I stay at the back'. And that's from there on that we equalized and 2-1, 3-1.
9:07 (with no transition, in the continuation of the story Gérson-Clodoaldo) :
« It was a team, as we did not have much players who went fast... so we must keep the ball. So to keep the ball, you must have talented players who plays well the ball. That, for me, it was the main asset that Zagallo found into this team there.
And in addition to that, three left-footed, three 10 : Tostao, Rivelino and Gerson. The fundamental aspect was to keep the ball.
And in addition to that, out of the preparation because at Guadalajara it was at the level of the sea, the temperature was 35-40°, and that it favoured us, it favoured our way of playing. Plus, the intelligence of Zagallo, with the idea of forming a team with many players of the inside [of the pitch, « insides »] alltogether.
10:00 : the journalist asks Caju to show some tactical plans. 'Zagallo puts you like that at the start but what happens then, everybody is a bit free or there is... there is some balance?'.
Caju : « Zagallo, the main thing...no he said nothing, it was the players on the pitch as I told you who spoke like that on the pitch...like with Gérson as I told you...against Uruguay...we were afraid, we were nervous...and it is the players who adjusted things...it's the players who talked between themselves on the pitch...the coach he says nothing [little laugh], he knew that there was some people who knew football...
Journalist : but during two months maybe you worked on some points ?
Caju : « Yes, him, already, he made some adjustments...he putted Piazza in defense instead of midfield and on the left wing it was Edu, we played in a 4-2-4... ».
Journalist : oh well... [maybe he remains convinced that the team of the World Cup was in 4-2-4 as well, and by the way he most of all precises for the viewers that Caju and himself speaks now of the pre-tournament team] ah with Saldanha it was like that...
Caju : « Yes, in 4-2-4, with Saldanha it was like that with Gérson-Piazza and Jair, Pelé, Tostao, Edu, or me from time to time. You understand ? While with Zagallo it was Codoaldo with Gérson-Rivelino, or Rivelino-Gérson it's the same [he exchanges their positions on the table], they could do what they wanted all over the pitch.
Journalist : and Tostao, and Pelé a bit more on the left...and Tostao could go on the left and...
Caju : « Yes at times he [Pelé] was on the left, he had the freedom of movement. That's why I tell you Didier : who decided what we're doin', it's the players...how to adjust...did we have to ask the coach what we must do, no.
Journalist : but sometimes, notably with Italian coaches, it's way more...
Caju : « But me I'm not Italian [fat laughs] »
Journalist continues : ...it is more compartmentalized, him he will never have the right to go here, or stuff, or...yes..
Caju : [laughs], I understood... but it's not us, it's not us...Zagallo, as he was a great player, intelligent, he let things happen on the pitch. Gérson, on the pitch, he was a coach. He talked a lot, he saw much, much vision of the game...it's not the same that Rivelino, you understand. Carlos [Carlos Alberto] same thing, extraordinary vision of the game...
Journalist : Carlos Alberto (?)...
Caju : « oh yes...Piazza too...much notions on the spaces...oh yes. Plus him [he points Gérson] who spoke a lot... 'give it', 'we play short'...»
In French, literally, Caju says « he spoke too much » with that sense of excess, instead of « he spoked much », just. So the journalist demands him to precise by asking if it was tiring (that Gérson talked much or to much) and Caju says :
« oh no it's beautiful, because he was the one who saw the game... »
Journalist : because you said that he spoke too much..
Caju : no no because he spoked too much but it was like that … we gave him his nickname, in Portuguese we say the papagayo, and Gérson he was a papagayo : he talks, and talks and talks and talks... because he saw too much the game, he's very intelligent. Me, after Didi, he's the best. Of all times, that I saw play. Oh yes, I played 6 years with him. He looks, he's always facing the game [Caju mimes a player with the head up and that sees far, the eyes wide-open]. 'We play long, we play short, we play long, we play short, we play long'... »
Journalist : he was a bit the metronome of the team...
Caju : «ah, it's him...that's why it's well him who changed things against Uruguay, it's not Zagallo, you understand ? »
Journalist : And the influence of Pelé in this system...Pelé it was [Caju starts to react, he changes of posture]...Pelé :
Caju : « aahhh, theeerrre...we know him ah ? I believe that it's much important, to talk apart, that there was much respect. Even if there was the King, there was much respect between all those players of that level here. And I believe that we manage to win this World Cup, why : first of all, as I already explained to you [off or in another itw], we had Pelé, who was world champion [sigh like of admiration, the words lack]...the best player in the world. He came for three months with us, at training everyday, without ever saying a word on the preparation or on...nothing, nothing. He said 'I want to win this World Cup'. Before the World Cup he took us all together [he mimes Pelé forming a circle with the players] : 'We have much talent here, we can win this World Cup' [sigh type : what else when Pelé tells you this?]. Zagallo ahaha. Zagallo, he is important for me in the sense that he let the talent express himself on the pitch. Imagine ! Today you can't see three left-footed alltogether on a pitch, at this level here, or five 10. It's not possible. It's possible, except that the Italians they have not that. Not the Germans, not the French-men...Didier Deschamps he does not like that...[forced laugh]. He likes the guys who put their ass on the pitch [laughs still a bit forced]. In Brazil after it was the same. Zagallo, no it was a great player. He saw he had the talent, he has putted the talent alltogether. Chapeau Monsieur Zagallo [hat off Mr. Zagallo].
We're at 14:00 and the journalist says that maybe if Deschamps had the players he'd play otherwise. To what Caju answers : « no, no because it's not his personnality. Before, the public in Marseille he was happy, today he is is bored, it's football of shit, we have no fun , there's not the dribble, there's not the collective football..this is true [Deschamps was the OM coach in the recent past years, ok]. « Here in Brazil, same thing, Pareira, or him and him...come on, go off, please, we can't stand it anymore us...me, I told you, I like the football of the artists... ».
And he comes back to the table and the 70 team :
« In 65-66 in the line of attack of Botafogo, we were all five internationals, not all starters but all selected. So Jair had already the habit to play with Gérson as a 10, with another striker. And we had the game in short passes but when it was a team that did not know us, we had Jairzinho who dropped back a bit in direction of Gérson like to ask for the ball in the feet but we had signs between us and no in fact it was for a long ball. You see.
Journalist : Hum. So you are at the half-time in the Final against Italy, it's 1-1, and it's not easy, there's not much spaces. [15:30]
Caju : « no, the match was balanced, and we lead 1-0...and it's our fault...
Journalist : there's Félix who...
Caju : « no, no it 's not Félix...Clodoaldo...Clodoaldooo, who takes the ball, like he knew playing he tried to tackle... he missed his tackle, there's Domenghini who caught the ball, he makes a counter, there's Brito who crashes into Félix...no it is our fault, it is not Félix, or the merit of Italy, it is Clodoaldo who had an unfavourable counter, who tried to make a graço, who tried to make a beautiful gesture...it's not the moment...
No, no. And we come back in the second half. In attack we had four excellent free-kick takers : Pelé, good free-kick taker, Rivelino, exceptional free-kick taker, Gérson, exceptional free-kick taker and Tostao. In this match there, Rivelino had minimum ten chances at the 18 yards, he has putted them all way off the bar. Extrordinary thing, the day before the match, the rain, in Mexico. The state of the pitch was in favor of the Italian's game, slippery like ice. This is true because if you watch, watch to see ! It was balanced though and then there is Gérson who scores the goal and from that moment on we totally come back and... »
We are at 16:55. Caju continues :
« There is also something exceptional. As Italy did individual marking, and we knew it... whe had seen matches of Italy during the week... chapeau Zagallo ! He told to Jair, as there was Facchetti, he told to Jair : 'each time you must drag away Facchetti on the other side of the pitch as he makes individual marking. And it was 3-1 for us and there was a huge space for Carlos Alberto. That, we practiced it at training during the week, on Facchetti - so we had a substitute to play the role of Facchetti.
What he did Jair ? He went to the other side in order to have Facchetti following him, it was already 3-1 for us and the fourth goal how he comes ? There's Clodoaldo who takes the ball here, he dribbles past four Italians, he gives to Rivelino who is here [he shows the left side on the table] who passes to Jair who had come here [on the left side] and there is Facchetti next to him. There's Jair who dominates, he comes here [he shows how he longed the penalty-box], he gives to Pelé...
Journalist : who gives to Carlo...
Caju : « who waiiits, who waiits...Carlos he was there behind [Caju mimes Pelé taking a look over his shoulder]...he takes the time, he dominates, and Carlos who arriiiiivesss, he taaakes, there is the ball that goes uupp...and he [he mimes the shoot of the ball with the outside of the foot with his hands, clack!]. 4-1 [he stamps one's foot].
And that we practiced it at traning during all the week. Jair, 'the American', he leads Facchetti on the other side. ».
Journalist : And that, it is the limit of the individual marking. What did Tostao had of particular … ?
Caju is once again very reactive : «ah, first of all his intelligence...he was not a centre-forward. He was like m...[me?] a midfielder, left-footed, like like...[according to his gestures and his smile, it seems he'd think volante, meia-esquerda and at the same time 'a bit like me', we are at 18:25-30].
It's a team, it's players who love the ball. When forming a team with skilful, intelligent players, us [he mimes you and me in the sense, the adversaries, he excludes himself a bit, it 's a maneer to talk and a way to explain he's talking about a superior player here] we will never see the ball ha ? The truth is that the ball is our own [the Brazilian team, he includes himself to this team again finally, he has started in a good number of matches by the way and was a great player too of course]. And Tostao he dropped back, and he liked to make some one-two's. At Cruzeiro, the style of play it was the same thing, the style of play of Santos it was the same and at Botafogo too ».
Journalist : And Pelé into there ? Because Pelé it's Pelé.
Caju groins something then says : « ...because there's no explanations...well...we all named him not 'anybody' or 'Pelé'...we spent 80 days together, everybody called him, even...not Zagallo, but all the others called him 'Rey'. 'Rey'. We saw Pelé...'Rey I need this'...'Rey !' We go training : 'Rey we do a nutmeg', 'Rey we do a one-two', 'Rey we make a jogging', 'Rey we will go out', 'Rey...'
Journalist : We called him 'king'.
Caju : « yeah, in a natural maneer. Noo, for me it was the most important thing. Apart from what I explained to you, the genius of Gérson...I know him, I played with him during 7 years, Rivelino same thing, pfff...Jair, same thing [laugh], Carlos...Paulo César, at the beginning [he mimes a little boy, a young man] I had already my tempter, can you imagine ? If we all had had inconciliable tempers ? Ha ? »
Journalist : But Pelé he has also marked this World Cup because of the goals he scored and the... [he mimes while thinking about his different actions]...
Caju : « But no, because for us the players, he had already made a lot of extraordinary things and he was already Pelé and us not...it was important in the sense that he was the king and that he was with us : he's our friend, he's by our side, you understand ?
Journalist : So it has been important.
Caju : « Oh yes, it was good for… how to say [he touches his shorts]...to avoid the fact of having a player who breaks the balls of others [laughs]. »
Journalist : It means that there was no shit disturber...
Caju : « Yesss, imagiinnne, 60 days with shit disturbers ! »
Journalist : but there, there was no shit disturbers because there was Pelé.
Caju : « yeaahh »...
Journalist : so there was nobody...
Caju : « oh it's important yeah ».
Journalist : ...to grumble...
Caju : « no-one ah no-one, I tell you, me . In 60 days, it's impressive. Because I played with Gérson and Jair in the same club, imagine ! F**k, 60 days without saying a word [he zips his mouth, in mimes], Rivelino the same. Tostao no, Tostao he is calm...some others, all the others... but there was Pelé ».
So we understood well in the end that for Caju, the main thing about Pelé is that he was like the big brother of the team. Even more, the King, the undisputable and undisputed King so the team could not know any inner rivalries or any problems of any kind from the preparation of the tournament until the Final, or at least shutted it, and in consequence could stick to that common objective of winning it, objective onto which Pelé had insisted himself while placing his confidence in all the players and lending his determination to all of them.
But also that for him, the technical and tactical leader on the pitch, the brain of the team was Gérson (not Pelé, so his litlle will to put his figurine at the centre of the team in his set-up on the table). Like Bozsik and not Puskas was seen as the most important player into the Hungarian « Golden Team » by the way, to make a comparision with the precedent Dream Team of the international football in History.
Now, a bit apart from that, we can take note that the journalist, Didier Roustan, in the beginning of the video, explains that he has demanded to be buried with his poster of the 1970 Brazilian team (amongst other items not related to football he adds, but for football it's the poster that we see and that he has since this time, of this World Cup).
A real passionate. Like Caju, who is really a joy to hear. And to see, because he is very expressive with his face, and by the gestures too.
Paulo Cézar in action, as a player :