In this filmed interview with Didier Roustan, Caju speaks about the 1970 Bazilian Team - that won the World Cup in Mexico. It's in French. Paulo Cézar speaks well French, he played at Marseille (in 74-75) and finished his career in Aix-en-Provence (in the early 80s), near Marseille, where he still lives a good part of the year (when it's winter in the southern hemisphere, and vice-versa, in Rio the 6 other months).
After the video, an attempt at translating this moment with the World Champion, in some quite understandable English, I hope, and also accurate enough regarding the thoughts and speech of Caju, as it actually is.
Here's the itw., that takes place in Brazil, in 2014 :
Here's the itw., that takes place in Brazil, in 2014 :
LE GRAND SECRET... par roustantv-lequipe
Here is what he says :
3:00 : "This team started in the
year '69 with Joao Saldanha. Saldanha was a coach who was chosen for
the people, for everybody. That was a "popular election"
[that's what he literally says, we can understand the idea which is
about the fact that Saldanha was chosen to lease the people,
that the people liked him, certainly for his style of play, not that
he was exactly elected by the people in practice of course and that
in the end it satisfied 'everybody' at this time].
"As he was under pressure in '69
[with a few time to work] he built a team based on players from
Santos, Botafogo and Cruzeiro with 7 players from these teams. We're
qualified. Saldanha knows problems, in particular with the
government, there's Zagallo who comes in and who changes a bit this
team : with Félix as the keeper, C.Alberto, RB, Santos, Brito, Vasco
da Gama stopper, Piazza, DM transformed here into a libero, Cruzeiro,
Everlado, Grêmio LB. Midfield : Clodoaldo from Santos, Gérson, Sao
Paulo, 10, Rivelino 10 at Corinthians, left winger at midfield, 7,
Jair who was 10 also at Botafogo, Tostao, CF, but 10 at Cruzeiro and
Pelé 10 at Santos.
4:27 : « So why he built
this team there ? » Caju asks himself. And journalist
(Didier Roustan) takes the floor. He says : everybody thought that Jairzinho was right winger of origin [...] so it's five number
10 together, it's never seen before.
Now Caju : « yes it's never
seen. And Zagallo... [so it was Zagallo' idea, but Caju fnally wants
to underline something else to start with] and three left-footed :
Gérson, Rivelino, Tostao. What he has done [Zagallo] ? As it
was a team with much talents, it was easier to understand each other
rather than the hubbub. We spent 60 days in [insert the name of the
place here] at 3000 m. of altitude for the physical condition to
arrive in the Final, as it took place in Mexico at 3.200 m., at our
top level.
As he [Zagallo] had only Jair who ran
fast (on the right wing), and me, as a substitute (as left winger), he made a team to
play the ball, we must keep the ball, it's the shared objective ».
At 4:40 he now explains the formation
he has set-up on the table :
« As he didn't not have
confidence into the libero that we had the time, Joel, who was good,
but who was not experimented at this epoch, he peferred to drop back
Piazza from the midfield to the central defence as the libero, he had
good feet him too...Cloadoaldo midfielder of Santos nearby. From
there on, two midfielders together : Rivelino midfielder at
Corinthians and Gerson midfielder, before at Botafogo and after at
Sao Paulo. What we have ? We have the ball under the foot. He
has putted Tostao - it was Gerson who had decided this, not Zagallo -
he was a pivot whose the game was based on touches of the ball. So
the ball was dominated from here in the defense until the midfield
and in attack. And we kept the ball, in order to play ».
Journalist : so there was no long
transversal passes of 60 meters...
« no, no...at times, there was
for Jair who went fast...he scored two against Czechoslovakia in the
first match...but we [a general « we »] did not know him
very well, he was not a starter in '66...but at our club at Botafogo
he was a 10, he played as a striker with Roberto. And Gérson he was
the midfielder together with me, we played sometimes based on touches
of the ball and we played sometimes long balls to Jair, and we did
this with the Brazilian selection...[as well] ». Journalist
takes the floor.
7:00. Jounalist asks about the set-up
that Caju as chosen and questions him especially about the position
that he has chosen for Pelé, in this 4-3-3, on the left wing.
Caju answers. He precises that in fact
Pelé had « the freedom of movement », like Rivelino he
adds, so Gérson who « could be here or here or there »
at midfield, in consequence.
It seems that he wanted to insist on
the fact that Gérson and Rivelino were the two playmakers of the
team at midfield (two left-footed he precises again) so this position
that he has chosen for Pelé on the table with the figurines (I don't
remember the exact name of it in Portuguese), a bit by default in
fact, finally. But also it seems that he has much the game against
Uruguay in mind and this is maybe true that Pelé operated quite
often on the left into this game (I think yes from the top of my
head).
We continue with Caju's words rightly
so on the match against Uruguay, at 7:10. Finally he will talk about
this one. He intends to talk about this match to justify himself
about the position he has chosen for Pelé.
« All the press talked about the
defeat of 1950...hey, we must remember that we lost etc. etc. Not
only in the Brazilian press, but even in the whole world... So we
were at Guadalajara for the semi-finals and we were tense, nervous,
everybody, amongst the players too with pression from Brazil, all the
Brazilian people [he doesn't tell about the politicians/ militaries but that's
what went through his mind in a very first time assuringly] from the
Uruguyans too » he adds.
And at half-time...we took a goal 15
minutes before the half-time, Cubillas receives the ball on the shin
and he deceives Félix like that !
Caju says Cubillas for Luis Cubilla. It
has created confusion in the mind of the journalist who intervenes on
it (or maybe that he only feinted it as he wanted to precise things
for the video...anyway). The two ways of spelling his name must be
acceptable I think.
Anyway, after he precised that he was
well talking about « the Uruguyan, on the right wing »,
Caju continues. He has by the way not talked about what he especially
wanted to talk about still, if you follow well.
« What he did Maneiro, the
Uruguyan who arrived, landed at Bordeaux to finally play at OL ? He made
an individual-marking on Gérson. So we could not exit the ball. What
said Gérson (not Zagallo) ? [He scratches his right ear] He says 'problem'... ».
Journalist : at half-time ?
Caju : no, before, on the pitch,
after the goal, the first-half was not over yet and Gérson will say
that he can't play due to his marking...during the game, before
half-time. So he says to Clodoaldo, go you ! And him he played
more at the back before the defense...it's him who says that, it's
not Zagallo », he repeats, in a more pronunced way than the
first time. And what he does, Clodoaldo ? He takes the ball, he
goes forward for the first time in his life, he gives the ball to
Tostao who was in position of left winger... he puts the ball here
[he shows the zone on the left], he runs, Tostao makes the pass, he
equalizes ».
Journalist : he makes the pass to
who ?
Caju : « to Clodoaldo… who
had never scored a goal in his life... because Gérson ordered to him
'go forward, me I stay at the back'. And that's from there on that we
equalized and 2-1, 3-1.
9:07 (with no transition, in the
continuation of the story Gérson-Clodoaldo) :
« It was a team, as we did not
have much players who went fast... so we must keep the ball. So to
keep the ball, you must have talented players who plays well the
ball. That, for me, it was the main asset that Zagallo found into
this team there.
And in addition to that, three
left-footed, three 10 : Tostao, Rivelino and Gerson. The
fundamental aspect was to keep the ball.
And in addition to that, out of the
preparation because at Guadalajara it was at the level of the sea,
the temperature was 35-40°, and that it favoured us, it favoured our
way of playing. Plus, the intelligence of Zagallo, with the idea of
forming a team with many players of the inside [of the pitch,
« insides »] alltogether.
10:00 : the journalist asks Caju
to show some tactical plans. 'Zagallo puts you like that at the start
but what happens then, everybody is a bit free or there is... there
is some balance?'.
Caju : « Zagallo, the main
thing...no he said nothing, it was the players on the pitch as I told
you who spoke like that on the pitch...like with Gérson as I told
you...against Uruguay...we were afraid, we were nervous...and it is
the players who adjusted things...it's the players who talked between
themselves on the pitch...the coach he says nothing [little laugh],
he knew that there was some people who knew football...
Journalist : but during two months
maybe you worked on some points ?
Caju : « Yes, him, already,
he made some adjustments...he putted Piazza in defense instead of
midfield and on the left wing it was Edu, we played in a 4-2-4... ».
Journalist : oh well... [maybe he
remains convinced that the team of the World Cup was in 4-2-4 as
well, and by the way he most of all precises for the viewers that
Caju and himself speaks now of the pre-tournament team] ah with
Saldanha it was like that...
Caju : « Yes, in 4-2-4,
with Saldanha it was like that with Gérson-Piazza and Jair, Pelé,
Tostao, Edu, or me from time to time. You understand ? While
with Zagallo it was Codoaldo with Gérson-Rivelino, or
Rivelino-Gérson it's the same [he exchanges their positions on the
table], they could do what they wanted all over the pitch.
Journalist : and Tostao, and Pelé
a bit more on the left...and Tostao could go on the left and...
Caju : « Yes at times he
[Pelé] was on the left, he had the freedom of movement. That's why I
tell you Didier : who decided what we're doin', it's the
players...how to adjust...did we have to ask the coach what we must
do, no.
Journalist : but sometimes,
notably with Italian coaches, it's way more...
Caju : « But me I'm not
Italian [fat laughs] »
Journalist continues : ...it is
more compartmentalized, him he will never have the right to go here,
or stuff, or...yes..
Caju : [laughs], I understood...
but it's not us, it's not us...Zagallo, as he was a great player,
intelligent, he let things happen on the pitch. Gérson, on the
pitch, he was a coach. He talked a lot, he saw much, much vision of
the game...it's not the same that Rivelino, you understand. Carlos
[Carlos Alberto] same thing, extraordinary vision of the game...
Journalist : Carlos Alberto (?)...
Caju : « oh yes...Piazza
too...much notions on the spaces...oh yes. Plus him [he points
Gérson] who spoke a lot... 'give it', 'we play short'...»
In French, literally, Caju says « he
spoke too much » with that sense of excess, instead of « he
spoked much », just. So the journalist demands him to precise
by asking if it was tiring (that Gérson talked much or to much) and
Caju says :
« oh no it's beautiful, because
he was the one who saw the game... »
Journalist : because you said that
he spoke too much..
Caju : no no because he spoked too
much but it was like that … we gave him his nickname, in Portuguese
we say the papagayo, and Gérson he was a papagayo : he talks,
and talks and talks and talks... because he saw too much the game,
he's very intelligent. Me, after Didi, he's the best. Of all times,
that I saw play. Oh yes, I played 6 years with him. He looks, he's
always facing the game [Caju mimes a player with the head up and that
sees far, the eyes wide-open]. 'We play long, we play short, we play
long, we play short, we play long'... »
Journalist : he was a bit the
metronome of the team...
Caju : «ah, it's him...that's why
it's well him who changed things against Uruguay, it's not Zagallo,
you understand ? »
Journalist : And the influence of
Pelé in this system...Pelé it was [Caju starts to react, he changes
of posture]...Pelé :
Caju : « aahhh,
theeerrre...we know him ah ? I believe that it's much important,
to talk apart, that there was much respect. Even if there was the
King, there was much respect between all those players of that level
here. And I believe that we manage to win this World Cup, why :
first of all, as I already explained to you [off or in another itw],
we had Pelé, who was world champion [sigh like of admiration, the
words lack]...the best player in the world. He came for three months
with us, at training everyday, without ever saying a word on the
preparation or on...nothing, nothing. He said 'I want to win this
World Cup'. Before the World Cup he took us all together [he
mimes Pelé forming a circle with the players] : 'We have much talent
here, we can win this World Cup' [sigh type : what else when
Pelé tells you this?]. Zagallo ahaha. Zagallo, he is important for
me in the sense that he let the talent express himself on the pitch.
Imagine ! Today you can't see three left-footed alltogether on a
pitch, at this level here, or five 10. It's not possible. It's
possible, except that the Italians they have not that. Not the
Germans, not the French-men...Didier Deschamps he does not like
that...[forced laugh]. He likes the guys who put their ass on the
pitch [laughs still a bit forced]. In Brazil after it was the same.
Zagallo, no it was a great player. He saw he had the talent, he has
putted the talent alltogether. Chapeau Monsieur Zagallo [hat off Mr.
Zagallo].
We're at 14:00 and the journalist says
that maybe if Deschamps had the players he'd play otherwise. To what
Caju answers : « no, no because it's not his personnality.
Before, the public in Marseille he was happy, today he is is bored,
it's football of shit, we have no fun , there's not the dribble,
there's not the collective football..this is true [Deschamps was the OM coach in the recent past years, ok]. « Here in Brazil, same thing,
Pareira, or him and him...come on, go off, please, we can't stand it
anymore us...me, I told you, I like the football of the artists... ».
And he comes back to the table and the
70 team :
« In 65-66 in the line of attack
of Botafogo, we were all five internationals, not all starters but
all selected. So Jair had already the habit to play with Gérson as a
10, with another striker. And we had the game in short passes but
when it was a team that did not know us, we had Jairzinho who dropped
back a bit in direction of Gérson like to ask for the ball in the
feet but we had signs between us and no in fact it was for a long
ball. You see.
Journalist : Hum. So you are at
the half-time in the Final against Italy, it's 1-1, and it's not
easy, there's not much spaces. [15:30]
Caju : « no, the match was
balanced, and we lead 1-0...and it's our fault...
Journalist : there's Félix who...
Caju : « no, no it 's
not Félix...Clodoaldo...Clodoaldooo, who takes the ball, like he
knew playing he tried to tackle... he missed his tackle, there's
Domenghini who caught the ball, he makes a counter, there's Brito who
crashes into Félix...no it is our fault, it is not Félix, or
the merit of Italy, it is Clodoaldo who had an unfavourable counter,
who tried to make a graço, who tried to make a beautiful
gesture...it's not the moment...
No, no. And we come back in the second
half. In attack we had four excellent free-kick takers : Pelé,
good free-kick taker, Rivelino, exceptional free-kick taker, Gérson,
exceptional free-kick taker and Tostao. In this match there, Rivelino
had minimum ten chances at the 18 yards, he has putted them all way
off the bar. Extrordinary thing, the day before the match, the rain,
in Mexico. The state of the pitch was in favor of the Italian's game,
slippery like ice. This is true because if you watch, watch to see !
It was balanced though and then there is Gérson who scores the goal
and from that moment on we totally come back and... »
We are at 16:55. Caju continues :
« There is also something
exceptional. As Italy did individual marking, and we knew
it... whe had seen matches of Italy during the week... chapeau
Zagallo ! He told to Jair, as there was Facchetti, he told to
Jair : 'each time you must drag away Facchetti on the other side
of the pitch as he makes individual marking. And it was 3-1 for us
and there was a huge space for Carlos Alberto. That, we practiced it
at training during the week, on Facchetti - so we had a substitute
to play the role of Facchetti.
What he did Jair ? He went to the
other side in order to have Facchetti following him, it was already
3-1 for us and the fourth goal how he comes ? There's Clodoaldo
who takes the ball here, he dribbles past four Italians, he gives to
Rivelino who is here [he shows the left side on the table] who
passes to Jair who had come here [on the left side] and there is
Facchetti next to him. There's Jair who dominates, he comes here [he
shows how he longed the penalty-box], he gives to Pelé...
Journalist : who gives to Carlo...
Caju : « who waiiits, who
waiits...Carlos he was there behind [Caju mimes Pelé taking a look
over his shoulder]...he takes the time, he dominates, and Carlos who
arriiiiivesss, he taaakes, there is the ball that goes uupp...and he
[he mimes the shoot of the ball with the outside of the foot with his
hands, clack!]. 4-1 [he stamps one's foot].
And that we practiced it at traning
during all the week. Jair, 'the American', he leads Facchetti on the
other side. ».
Journalist : And that, it is the
limit of the individual marking. What did Tostao had of
particular … ?
Caju is once again very reactive :
«ah, first of all his intelligence...he was not a
centre-forward. He was like m...[me?] a midfielder, left-footed, like
like...[according to his gestures and his smile, it seems he'd think
volante, meia-esquerda and at the same time 'a bit like
me', we are at 18:25-30].
It's a team, it's players who love the
ball. When forming a team with skilful, intelligent players, us [he
mimes you and me in the sense, the adversaries, he excludes himself a
bit, it 's a maneer to talk and a way to explain he's talking
about a superior player here] we will never see the ball ha ?
The truth is that the ball is our own [the Brazilian team, he
includes himself to this team again finally, he has started in a good
number of matches by the way and was a great player too of course].
And Tostao he dropped back, and he liked to make some one-two's. At
Cruzeiro, the style of play it was the same thing, the style of play
of Santos it was the same and at Botafogo too ».
Journalist : And Pelé into
there ? Because Pelé it's Pelé.
Caju groins something then says :
« ...because there's no explanations...well...we all named him
not 'anybody' or 'Pelé'...we spent 80 days together, everybody
called him, even...not Zagallo, but all the others called him 'Rey'.
'Rey'. We saw Pelé...'Rey I need this'...'Rey !' We go
training : 'Rey we do a nutmeg', 'Rey we do a one-two', 'Rey we
make a jogging', 'Rey we will go out', 'Rey...'
Journalist : We called him 'king'.
Caju : « yeah, in a natural
maneer. Noo, for me it was the most important thing. Apart from what
I explained to you, the genius of Gérson...I know him, I played with
him during 7 years, Rivelino same thing, pfff...Jair, same thing
[laugh], Carlos...Paulo César, at the beginning [he mimes a little
boy, a young man] I had already my tempter, can you imagine ? If
we all had had inconciliable tempers ? Ha ? »
Journalist : But Pelé he has also
marked this World Cup because of the goals he scored and the... [he
mimes while thinking about his different actions]...
Caju : « But no, because for
us the players, he had already made a lot of extraordinary things and
he was already Pelé and us not...it was important in the sense that
he was the king and that he was with us : he's our friend, he's
by our side, you understand ?
Journalist : So it has been
important.
Caju : « Oh yes, it was good
for… how to say [he touches his shorts]...to avoid the fact of
having a player who breaks the balls of others [laughs]. »
Journalist : It means that there
was no shit disturber...
Caju : « Yesss, imagiinnne,
60 days with shit disturbers ! »
Journalist : but there, there was
no shit disturbers because there was Pelé.
Caju : « yeaahh »...
Journalist : so there was
nobody...
Caju : « oh it's important
yeah ».
Journalist : ...to grumble...
Caju : « no-one ah no-one, I
tell you, me . In 60 days, it's impressive. Because I played
with Gérson and Jair in the same club, imagine ! F**k, 60 days
without saying a word [he zips his mouth, in mimes], Rivelino the
same. Tostao no, Tostao he is calm...some others, all the others...
but there was Pelé ».
/////
So we understood well in the end that
for Caju, the main thing about Pelé is that he was like the big
brother of the team. Even more, the King, the undisputable and
undisputed King so the team could not know any inner rivalries or any
problems of any kind from the preparation of the tournament until the
Final, or at least shutted it, and in consequence could stick to that
common objective of winning it, objective onto which Pelé had
insisted himself while placing his confidence in all the players and
lending his determination to all of them.
But also that for him, the technical
and tactical leader on the pitch, the brain of the team was Gérson
(not Pelé, so his litlle will to put his figurine at the centre of
the team in his set-up on the table). Like Bozsik and not Puskas was
seen as the most important player into the Hungarian « Golden
Team » by the way, to make a comparision with the precedent
Dream Team of the international football in History.
Now, a bit apart from that, we can take
note that the journalist, Didier Roustan, in the beginning of the
video, explains that he has demanded to be buried with his poster of
the 1970 Brazilian team (amongst other items not related to football
he adds, but for football it's the poster that we see and that he has
since this time, of this World Cup).
A real passionate. Like Caju, who is
really a joy to hear. And to see, because he is very expressive with
his face, and by the gestures too.
Paulo Cézar in action, as a player :
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